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CHRIS SAMPSON:
When I came to Ukraine four years ago, there were a few books I brought with me. Of course, you have to have the counterinsurgency manual—David Petraeus. And then this one, especially with everything we’re seeing in America: it’s important to pay attention to what the standard used to be.
And yes—Twin Peaks music, because it’s time for some damn fine coffee.
Thanks to my team down the street for making that happen on short notice.
There’s a lot in the news, and there’s so much we have to cover. We’ll let Frank get in here and then we’ll get going. Please make sure you’re telling your friends we’re about to go live.
Forgive me—I’m going to adjust the camera a bit, because we’ll have two people on screen in a moment.
We’re in a blackout right now, so we’re running on reserve power, as we often are. And the news is: Russia will still be Russia tonight. That means there will very likely be missiles and drones trying to take out power facilities and kill Ukrainians—like they always try to do.
At the end of tonight’s program, I may stay on a little longer with some friends. But next week we’ve got a strong lineup: Craig Unger is scheduled (we couldn’t coordinate timing the other night), my friend Oleksandr will join us to talk about security guarantees for Ukraine, the U.S., and Europe—and on Thursday we’ll have John Fugelsang, one of my favorite comedians, and a brilliant, razor-witty guy.
I’ve always appreciated how John takes on the religious right—how they weaponize scripture. And if you notice, a lot of the people who throw biblical references at you—like Mike Johnson—don’t live up to what those passages actually say.
I’ll be clear: I’m a trained Buddhist in multiple traditions. I’ve read religious texts since I was a child—more academically than devotionally. But I respect faith and religious people. As a journalist, though: citations, notes, accountability for facts—those matter.
Tonight I want to preface this by saying: I first met Frank Figliuzzi through work he was doing on a podcast with my friend Navid Jamali. After a broadcast, we talked about pending election violence and the groups I was monitoring—groups that were absolutely planning to interact violently with your vote. “Interact” is me being polite.
You see what Steve Bannon is doing now—trying to do it all over again. They cannot win at the ballot box, and because they can’t, they cheat. They intimidate. They send their boot-kickers out to aggressively and violently attack our democracy.
Where we left off in October 2024—days before the election, on Halloween—we talked about where we’d been, the concerns heading into election season, and what we feared could come next. Many people hoped there wouldn’t be another Donald Trump problem. A year later, there is.
When Frank joins us, we’ll go through what we’ve seen over the last year. Frank always brings insight. I never miss his livestreams—he did one last night about what looked like a kidnapping involving Savannah Guthrie’s family. He has a lot of experience with how investigations unfold.
So let’s bring him in.
(Frank joins)
CHRIS SAMPSON:
Frank, I see you—and I see the new set.
FRANK FIGLIUZZI:
I do. It was time for a change.
CHRIS SAMPSON:
I was telling the audience how we first connected—back around election violence concerns—and where we were days before the 2024 election. So let me ask: how has the last year been?
FRANK FIGLIUZZI:
Oh boy. First, thank you for having me, and thank you for doing independent journalism. You’re part of a movement—one that’s redefining how people consume news and analysis. There will be mistakes and successes, and that’s how it goes.
The short answer on the last year is: complicated and multi-faceted. Significant change—in my professional life, and in the life of this nation.
If there are folks who haven’t plugged into what’s happening to our country and its future—or who’ve actively turned away from it—they’re going to regret where we end up, and not being part of resisting what’s happening.
CHRIS SAMPSON:
We spent months watching indictments and accountability unravel in court—then Trump basically threw them out on the street to do his bidding. Some are ICE now; some we don’t know where they are. How dangerous is it that we don’t even know who’s behind those masks?
FRANK FIGLIUZZI:
You’re raising a point I would have avoided answering months ago, because of the risk of getting shoved into “conspiracy nutcase” territory.
But I’m a facts and evidence guy. And I will say: our inability right now to gather facts and evidence about who is behind those ICE masks should be deeply troubling.
What I’m seeing from people who are purportedly federal agents is so anathema to what I experienced in 25 years as a federal agent, that I’m left to engage in educated conjecture about what’s happening.
Here’s a fact: DHS is hiring so fast they’re not completing vetting. We’ve heard leaders in agencies are waiving polygraph requirements. There’s solid reporting that agents are arriving at academy with less than full vetting—and even criminal records.
So a couple possibilities: some of these people are felons and violent individuals who most Americans would not think should qualify to be federal agents with a gun and badge.
And with veteran agents—if they are veterans—then this behavior can be by design. What I call intentional aggression: following orders to do unlawful things.
CHRIS SAMPSON:
You know, I come from a progressive side that historically distrusted the FBI for different reasons. But parts of law enforcement and military have been extreme for a long time—they just needed the flag to move.
I did counterterrorism work as a civilian for 12 years. I learned the slow way: infiltrate groups, monitor them. In 2020 I wrote a threat report—one category was existing law enforcement that could be weaponized. So I’m not surprised when someone with ten years’ experience unleashes what they’ve been holding back.
FRANK FIGLIUZZI:
Right. When you tell people they have absolute immunity—wrongly—when the President says, “We will always have the back of DHS agents,” and leadership is incompetent—this is what you get.
This is no longer happenstance. No one can say with a straight face these are aberrations, or lack of training. I’m done with that.
And let’s go further: this massive agency we call ICE—which dwarfs the budget and personnel of all other federal law enforcement agencies combined—is not just about rounding up undocumented migrants. There’s another agenda here. Steve Bannon said it: “We’re going to surround polling places with ICE agents.” That’s secret police behavior.
CHRIS SAMPSON:
We talked before about constitutional sheriffs and groups that were already a problem. What do people need to keep in mind when confronted with that?
FRANK FIGLIUZZI:
Constitutional sheriffs claim they answer only to the Constitution. They’re elected officials. They respond only to “the people,” and they enforce only the laws they want. Most importantly, they don’t recognize the federal government.
The danger is: they can refuse to enforce laws—red flag laws, mask bans, anything. And when we talk about midterms and elections, they’re often the ones in your county who literally transport vote results to be counted.
Guess who they are? Your sheriffs.
CHRIS SAMPSON:
Some officials have tried to stand up and say they won’t be part of this. What’s happening to them?
FRANK FIGLIUZZI:
They’re resigning. They’re being overlooked. They’re being fired. It’s catastrophic.
The good news/bad news is: ethical people with integrity are refusing to do unlawful things and leaving in droves. But the result is agencies hollowed out. Look at the Minnesota U.S. Attorney’s Office—there’s almost no one left with experience.
And the irony is: Trump screamed “fraud” there. Now the top prosecutors working major fraud cases have resigned. So there’s your fraud plan.
DOJ headquarters is losing attorneys in droves. The government will be staffed with a “deep state” like you’ve never seen—and it won’t be loyal to the Constitution. It’ll be loyal to him.
And this is open-ended. It’s not “win the midterms and it’s over.” This movement is entrenched. Our grandkids will be dealing with it.
CHRIS SAMPSON:
I keep thinking counterintelligence: who are these people working with, who are they working for, who benefits?
FRANK FIGLIUZZI:
You’ve hit a sore spot. I’m the counterintelligence guy. I headed the counterintelligence program in the Bureau.
I’m not convinced any meaningful counterintelligence is being worked by the U.S. government right now.
We have adversaries—Russia, China, Iran, others—who wake up every day trying to harm U.S. interests. Trump seems uninterested in that concept. He’s interested in who can benefit him.
And we’ve seen actions like disbanding foreign influence work aimed at stopping interference and disinformation. That work should be constant. It’s not happening.
Ask: when’s the last time you saw a federal corruption case opened on a Republican—unless that Republican crossed Trump? Then it’s weaponized.
Two things can be true at the same time: Trump acts transactionally for profit, and foreign adversaries’ influence over him shapes behavior—even to the point of acting against U.S. interests.
CHRIS SAMPSON:
I’m in Kyiv. I’ve been here four years—1,397 days of war. One thing triggers me every time: Trump on the phone with Putin. Because it means missiles and drones that night. It means devastation. It always reverses progress.
FRANK FIGLIUZZI:
No one knows better than you what happens when a national leader overlooks slaughter and democracy in peril.
We are wide open. I think we are more vulnerable now than we’ve been in recent history—including around 9/11.
I write about this in my book, The FBI Way. I remember being in meetings where senior intelligence officials told us: we’re going to be attacked, it’s going to be massive. They begged us: go back to your field offices and figure it out before it happens.
Cyberwise, we are vulnerable. Where is the counterintelligence effort to stop what’s coming? If you’re not devoting resources to Russia, China, Iran, Middle East threats—you’ll get slammed.
CHRIS SAMPSON:
People don’t understand how influence operations lower shields—little by little, guardrails come down. Americans get distracted by scandals and noise. That’s why I call it cognitive warfare.
How do we get people to wake up—especially conservatives—about what happens to them if this continues?
FRANK FIGLIUZZI:
People do need to pay attention. I hear “I don’t do the news” like it’s a badge of pride. That’s why voices like yours matter—reaching people where they are.
Look back to 2016: there was a behind-the-scenes battle to push back foreign interference. We won—but it was close. That battle happens every election.
In the next election, if we’re not working it, a foreign adversary will assist Trump. I believe that.
And to MAGA folks: you might be thrilled Putin helps your side—until you imagine China or Iran interfering to stop Trump. How would you feel then?
Also: look at foreign influence and gifts—jets, money, tech. Are you okay with cutting-edge AI technology being handed over? Are you okay with that?
CHRIS SAMPSON:
I’m seeing burnout even among MAGA-adjacent people. They want a normal life back. And it’s hitting pocketbooks.
FRANK FIGLIUZZI:
Same. I know wealthy people who voted for Trump for wealth preservation. Now they’re saying inflation is out of control, the economy is a mess. I’m letting them figure it out.
If it’s about the economy for them—fine. Whatever wakes them up.
CHRIS SAMPSON:
Let’s talk Elon Musk. People ask why you’re not on Twitter/X. You left. Musk has too many national security tentacles—DOGE scams, Social Security access, defense contracts. Here in Ukraine we just saw Starlink restrictions shift, and it caused chaos behind Russian lines.
What do you think is happening behind the scenes?
FRANK FIGLIUZZI:
He has way too many defense contracts. A guy who likely wouldn’t pass a real security clearance.
And now we hear talk of Grok being used across defense systems. I’m deeply concerned it’s embedded in the U.S. military without clarity on how it’s used. None of it is going to be good.
CHRIS SAMPSON:
Trump attacking allies—trying to take Greenland—tearing at NATO relationships—
FRANK FIGLIUZZI:
We need friends. I shouldn’t have to say that.
Almost nothing significant in global intelligence happens without allies—Five Eyes and beyond. Norway told Trump directly: “We’re the first to alert you when Russian subs are moving.” That’s real.
If we burn alliances, it takes years to rebuild. And intelligence recruitments stop. Sources stop being shared. Imagine the UK recruits a high-placed Russian source—then the U.S. says “we’re not collecting on Russia.” The Brits won’t share that with us.
Bad things are going to happen when this continues.
CHRIS SAMPSON:
On Benghazi—this is something I know well—how often did investigations depend on allies and partners?
FRANK FIGLIUZZI:
Constantly. There were times we would have suffered terrorist attacks if allies hadn’t helped tip us off and stop them.
Crime is global. The FBI has around 200 offices overseas—legal attachés in embassies—because we realized decades ago: you have to work with countries to tackle threats together.
CHRIS SAMPSON:
Before you go, I want to hit media: layoffs, consolidation. People used to see you on MSNBC. Now they can follow you directly. What does this new era mean?
FRANK FIGLIUZZI:
Net positive in many ways: moving away from corporate control. Bezos’ moves at the Washington Post are disgraceful.
But there’s a downside: when you lose corporate infrastructure, you lose legal departments and standards teams. Editorial standards protected all of us from inaccuracies. Now people must be careful who they follow.
Also: there’s a price to leaving corporate media. The fraction of followers who actually pay even a few dollars is tiny. But you used to pay for newspapers and cable—if you don’t support independent voices, they go away.
Look for people who show their work. Verify. Don’t amplify rumors.
CHRIS SAMPSON:
For the audience: follow Frank, subscribe, and support his work. It keeps his voice in the public square instead of forcing him back into security work just to pay bills.
Frank, thank you for joining us.
FRANK FIGLIUZZI:
Chris, I pray for your safety. Missiles exploding down the street—what you’re doing is essential. Thank you.
CHRIS SAMPSON:
We’ll be back soon. Stay safe, my friend.
FRANK FIGLIUZZI:
You too. Bye.
CHRIS SAMPSON:
I’m going to stay with the audience for a few more minutes.
Don’t forget to subscribe here, and support Frank’s account so we can keep doing this. Live from Kyiv—every few nights.
Next week: Craig Unger, John Fugelsang, my friend Oleksandr, and more.
Until then: take care, be safe, and look out for each other.